Q8. One of the students at Pathshala wants to know why one cannot eat naturally dead cow's meat. She does not want to do it. However, her classmate asked, and she could not answer. Do you have a good answer for it?
On the surface this question might seem extraneous with an obvious answer, however, it stems from systematic understanding of Ahimsa principle and awareness about existence of life in one, two, three, four and five sensed living beings. Please refer to this blog post for details about five senses and their role from Ahimsa point of view.
This question can be addressed in one of the two ways:
· Asking an individual to “not question it” and just follow what is being said. Using this approach is easy and simple, but in the long run, it will either drive the individuals away from religion and spiritual lifestyle, or create a community that would follow religion blindly, that is, without any understanding of their own.
Or
· Aid individuals in understanding the values, principles and logical reasoning, so that the individuals can use their own logic and wisdom. Nowadays, people have information at their fingertips, there is increased awareness and they want to think, understand and reason it out for themselves.
Our intent in addressing this question is to create a positive and enriching experience about the religion, enable understanding and answer questions for curious minds who want to understand rather than follow blindly.
This question can be interpreted in many ways. The question is not about eating meat or debating on natural causes for animal's death. The focus and intend of the question is:-
- If an animal is naturally dead (animal’s soul has parted/the dead body is not living)
- By eating meat of that animal equivalent amount of plant lives are saved
- Assumption is that technically there is no violation of non-violence principle. Then is it allowed in Jainism?
And the answer is NO.
Jain Acharyas did not allow it and consequently the Jain societies have been protected from the negative implications that may result from these types of actions.
As an example - Buddhism has the similar five great vows like Jainism. However, the non-violence vow has been mis-interpreted and exploited and meat eating has proliferated in some Buddhist culture.
“According to Theravada sect of Buddhism, Buddha allowed his monks to eat pork, chicken and fish if the monk was aware that the animal was not killed on their behalf.”
In other words, Buddha allowed eating meat of a dead animal with some caveats in place. Those caveats and loopholes are now being taken advantage of by some.
In Bangkok, some restaurants have signs “we sell only dead animal’s meat”. This implies that animals were not killed for their meat. Rather animals died naturally and then their body is being used as meat. Hence many Buddhist people and monks eat the meat in the restaurant without thinking twice or feeling guilty about it.
One can see that industries and businesses take advantage of this kind of loopholes. How can that many animals die naturally where the restaurants always have meat dishes for their customers?
Every action by which a person directly or indirectly supports killing/injury to animals and/or every action that knowingly or unknowingly promotes the industries that involves cruelty towards animals is a form of violence (himsa). When it comes to any form of violence, whether we are doing it (karyu), making someone else do it (karavyu) or directly/indirectly promoting others to do it (karta anumodiyu), then it results in karma bondage and limits our spiritual growth.
In Jainism, food is restricted to that originating from plants, since plants have only one sense (ekindiya) and are the least developed form of life. Research shows a plant-based diet, which emphasizes fruits, vegetables, grains, beans, legumes and nuts, is rich in fiber, vitamins and other nutrients also has health benefits, such as reducing your risk of heart disease, diabetes and some cancers. Consuming any food that is harmful to our body is violence towards ourselves.
Death of an animal will promote growth of bacteria in the body. This fact can lead to questions about himsa at bacteria level related to food consumption. However, consumption of yogurt or fermented food (dosa/idli/ dhokla batter) also incurs bacteria growth. Even farming also incur himsa at bacteria level. From a layperson perspective, for our healthy survival we cannot avoid himsa at the bacteria level but attempt to minimize it. Here our aim is to discuss himsa to five sense animals, which is considered highest sinful act than millions of bacteria (one or two sense invisible living beings) in Jainism.
Jainism has one of the most rigorous forms of spiritually motivated diet on the Indian subcontinent. Whether the animal is dead naturally or butchered, the meat is still “meat”. We should think about how our food choices fit into our spiritual path or our vision for transforming ourselves?
If Jain Acharya’s would allow the exceptions to such rules, then people will find ways to exploit it and compromise ethical standards. People forget the circumstances or the caveats and start following it as a norm. If there is a leeway, people get a tendency towards eating it and when something becomes part of the culture then it takes time to overcome it and people continue to follow it blindly. In Jainism, this is what happened with dairy consumption, people are culturally programmed to consume dairy products, despite of the cruelty towards five sense animals in current times. (See this blog post for details). In the past, milk and other dairy products were allowed only for medical purpose and with Acharya’s permission, however it has become a norm even though raas-tyag is the fourth vow of nirjara.
Because of such negative implications to society and people going into wrong directions, Jainism does not allow such exceptions/actions with meat consumption.
Wonderful series and a good explanation as to why "dead" meat is not allowed. One angle is missing though. The flesh of animals contains many chemicals and substances which are not conducive to meditative states (similar to onions & garlic). Ayurveda, for example, permits and prescribes the consumption of mean for certain body types and health conditions. But if certain meats are prescribed for bodily health, there is likely a concomitant negative effect on the mind. Whether the animal is naturally killed or not, its chemical composition is substantially the same. So the question of whether or not to eat the "dead" meat or not depends on one's focus in life. Meat can be healthy for the body, of this there is no doubt. But it is almost always harmful for the mind and soul. And if self-realization is one's goal, then one must abjure animal flesh. (This may also be the logic to apply to the question of whether or not Jains can eat "lab-grown" meat grown from real animal cells).
ReplyDeleteExcellent coverage
DeleteThe moment an animal dies the process of decomposition begins giving rise to infinite number of lives in it. so that is one of the reason we don't eat dead be it a natural cause of death or killed
ReplyDeleteWhat about when you eat yoghurt/Dahi or any fermented food.
DeleteBacteria in Yogurt is helpful and they will naturally thrive in our stomach. (to be scientifically validated)
Deletethere is no living bactria in same day's yogurt.
Deletebefore sunset we have to transfom it in form in chruned liquid of curd to extend its validity for the next day only.
it is only allowed to eat in jainism.
all moving things in world are not living bactria.
"pintu"
This question raises a number of points to consider from perspective of Jain principles and other practical points of view. The question generally arises in the context of “what conditions would have to be true in order to justify eating meat?” And also “if there is no additional violence involved, how can it be wrong?”
ReplyDeleteFirst question to ask oneself is why the person who asked the original question even conceived of the desire for eating the flesh of a dead animal arise? What kind of feeling must a person nurture in order to desire, seek, eat, and digest such food? The craving for and the underlying intent of eating the flesh of animals still entails the same end requirement that the animal must die to feed one’s appetite. The only difference is whether or not it’s from an animal that was purposely killed. The fact that it happens to come from an animal that purportedly died naturally without the violence of slaughtered animals, is immaterial. In Jain dharma, one must examine one’s own bhav or intent. From this perspective, eating dead animal is same as eating a slaughtered animal. It may even be considered WORSE because it requires one to lie to oneself about the true bhav, by misusing the apparent death of the animal as a justification for consuming it.
From a biological perspective, eating dead animals is the behavior of scavengers like vultures, crows, hyenas, and lobsters, not of human beings. When natural, satvic vegan food is available to us, why should one chose to eat dead meat? Animals that die naturally will generally be old and diseased, rotting and eventually become consumed by maggots. To eat such food, even after cooking, is repulsive to the natural inclination of human being, and would be detrimental to one’s health.
From a practical point of view, it would be impossible to have so many dead animals available in the locations and timing when people would need them as a sustainable source of eating. More likely, the idea of dead animal consumption would become an excuse to justify non-veg consumption. It would probably lead the industry to find fraudulent ways to kill animals and then certify the meat as “naturally dead.”
For it not to be the case, imagine what it would take. Someone would have to follow the animal around until it dies. The scavenger hunter would have to invade natural habitats, many of which may be inaccessible to us. The person would likely create bad bhavna that the animal dies soon. For us to create demand for such meat would be encouraging others to commit violence on our behalf. Furthermore, such a scenario for meat consumption would be economically unsustainable, as evidenced by the scarcity of natural scavengers and predators who spend the majority of their time and caloric energy in the pursuit of scarce food.
If people gets a tendency that is their choice. But I would like to know more from a fact point? Is eating dead animals meat against principles of Jainism? Just bcoz somebody develops a habit or tendency towards something doesn't seems to be a justifiable logic..
ReplyDeleteYes. Please read original response. Karyu, Karavyu and anumodyu means you are indirect reason for violence.
DeleteGood explanation
ReplyDeleteOther wise Humans generally an explotive being would consider eating naturally dead Human animals too
You can see where this may lead to with'survival of the fittest' theories.
To add to the blog.
ReplyDeleteWe have to eat food which will help us to reach Moksh fastest. Moksh can be attained if we have superior control over mind. The food we take has a great impact on our thinking and the spontaneous actions we do. Spontaneous actions are the one which generates maximum sin (paap) which will not allow one to go to Moksh. Spontaneous action example are like to get super angry on someones behaviour. To become very violent. To become very depressed in some cases etc etc which are all going to act as deterrent in maintaining the equanimity of our mind and behaviour which is foremost for attaining Moksh. Meat is considered as tamasi food (food which creates more instability in mind). It is like if you want to see your image in a lake, you can see clear image only if water is still. The moment you throw a stone in water it will create ripples in water and disturb your reflection/image in water. This is what tamasi food does to our mind. It will not allow our mind to become very stable which is quintessential for moksha. Hence this is also a key reason not to have it. There is no single reason but multiple reason for any thing mentioned in Jainism.
Vegetarian food mostly is non Tamsi. Whatever is Tamsi like Brinjal or Garlic/Onion and even other things have been disallowed in Jainism.
It does not mean that if we eat Tamsi food we cannot attain Moksh. But the fact is can a lake be ripple free if a stone is thrown in it? No it cannot be, in rarest of the rare case it might happen once in billion case that too due to the weight of the stone or the quality of water or some other reason but can we take that chance and say that we will be that lucky one to attain Moksh even if we eat Tamsi food? Hence if your aim is to reach Moksh Meat is no option. But if your aim is not to get closer to Moksh then it does not matter how much ripples are created in your mind. 84 lakh yonis are awaiting such people 24x7.
Do you know what Moksh is? Moksh is the same lure that Jain Sadhu's give to people, the way other religions lure their followers towards Heaven, Jannat, etc.
DeleteJainisim also has an evasive answer to people who question the mythical "Moksh" by labeling them as non-believers or being in a gati that is not deserving/eligible for attaining moksh.. Finally they labeled the current era as an era where non-believers will arise and Nobody will be able to attain "Moksh".. Such a baloney.. and fantasy
It is not a lure. No one can lure any1 in this world. You can practice Vipassana and then you your self will realise the existing of Moksha. The person who has never tasted sweetness cannot understand why some one enjoys Rasgulla. But if some one gives him few crystals of Sugar he will agree there can be some things which are wonderful in taste and there could be some things even much better than that like Rasgulla. Vipassana will surely make you experience about the existence of Moksh.
DeleteForget about Moksh. Who will not want a peaceful life? Who will not want to have complete control over self thoughts, wants to be insulated from misery around us? Everyone right?? So Moksh is nothing but same thing. It's having absolute control over your thoughts and is there is no misery you are ought to be happy! Who will not like to pursue such a goal? You name it anything. Till the time you do not experience a bit of such stage where you are in total control of yourself and able to navigate through misery like a cake walk it is difficult to understand the existence of Moksh.
I do agree we all have never experienced full Moksh, but the proof we get in today's time definately proves it's existence. Just like you cannot see radiation from your cell phone, but when you can hear other person you believe there is some radiation going and coming from my cell phone.
So my dear friend do find a right guru to atleast experience the basic form of Moksh and all your questions about it will vanish. I agree there are many Guru in today's world who want a following. But if you want to learn real thing, there are gurus available still. Just that it's as good as finding a diamond in coal mine. But you will surely find real ones.
I was like you, a non believer before 3 years. But once I did Vipassana, learner the art of Kayotsarg, learner what the Tirthankar used to do in Tapasya , I experienced a goodness, a power of self control, a power to ride over misery easily and that gives me conviction that there can definately existence of a state where a person has 100% control over things and that no external thing can affect him and that stage itself is Moksh and nothing else.
It is not Baloney or Fantasy if you have a proper guru and proper guidance. But if you are hungry to experience it, sooner or later you are bound to find the right person who will make you experience the 1% of Moksh on an experiencial basis and not only in words or literature. Then it's upto you to travel the path to reach the 100% ultimate goal.
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DeleteHi,
DeleteThank you for clarifying the previous answer.
I had written a long response back but somehow I lost that response and gave me opportunity again to think what I wanted to write.
My questioning on the use of word Moksh is towards the blanket representation of Moksh, the way how it is being sold as the final place to reach and the way to reach there is doing all your rituals with perfection.
What you experienced at Vipashna is a very internal process. Vipashna gave you opportunity to meditate without shakles of Temples. Vipashna meditation had no person acting like a hall monitor telling you what you did wrong. So that Moksh, is all internal and not external.
You or I achieving Moksh is not going to be governed by how many rituals we follow. It is not going to be swayed by whether I know 32 Atichar gatha or have memorized Panch Pratikaman. Learning the sutras without internalizing the sanctity and meaning of it is pointless.
If you mention about delayed achievement of Moksha due to meat eating, not knowing you, I would automatically think you are talking about Moksh in its most prevalent sense.
Coming back to the topic of meat eating and Moksh, I still feel that achievement of the real moksh has nothing to do with meat eating.
There are places and people who know meat as being their only source of food and that's their way of life, non-sentimental consideration of animals as food and moksh is achievable by them too. (I am not interested the conversation that says "their previous karma brought them to this situation").
Thank you for the good dialog
Hi,
DeleteI do agree 100% on what you say. Learning gatha or some sutra without internalization is not going to lead us anywhere. There is no doubt about it. But if we understand the basics of Jainism we will surely value those gatha and will gain immensely from it.
In Jainism it's said that we get right to Navkar only after 45 days of Updhan Tap. I have never done Updhan but after doing Vipassana I very well understood that originally Updhan was as same as Vipassana. Originally Vipassana basic course was also 45 days today it is 10 days. We clean our mind by Updhan or Vipassana in 45 days and then with a very clear mind... Mind free of many impurities we get the right to Navkar.
But all that has gone away with time. We are definately loosing essence of true dharma and have made the supplementary stuff as the main stuff and going on wrong way. But that happens with all things in life. With great corporations, great families... Everyone. Jainism is also victim of it. Over a period of time it has got diluted... The heads were unable to bring major changes due to whatsoever reason... And many time related issue like droughts and various external thereats in India which lead to various dilution and drifting of mindset from true religion to currently followed untrue religion with loosing the essence and purpose of any kriya or path or Gatha.
But I think we are lucky that our Jain corporation has still sustained and we can become the CEO to bring changes and bring back original values. We still have all major things intact....only thing we have lost is the true essenese and purpose for kriya, or money mindedness in Sangh for various purpose like Sapna in Mahavir Vanchan... It is not tuff to reorient people to real dharma. Organization like JAINA are doing really great work in that path.
Now coming back to Meat eating, frankly speaking I am not a scholar. Nor do I know much beyond Chaityavandan. I just shared my thoughts over it. I need to ask some Acharya who are very near to the place I stay. I will go to him and discuss on it and share all the views in this post and try to seek answer from him from his point of view and also from Jainism point of view. And then let's see what we get more from them to add value to this discussion. If you have some particular questions do let me know will try to get answers from him or some learned person here in India.
First of all, I need to emphasise that Vipasana is not part of Jain religion. It is part of Buddhist practices.
DeleteThe important thing to know is that there is "life" everywhere. To condemn Onions is a level of knowledge of people 500 years ago. The fact is that there are germs in and on all items of food. It is the interpretation of the word Ahimsa that causes problems. Different Sadhus through the centuries have made different interpretations and given differing advice on food. The best thing to do is to look at the fundamental meaning of Ahimsa, and connection of Soul and body. Add to that the need to remain in a homogeneous society of Jain believers. In that combination, you may find that although scientific evidence suggests that most eggs do not have life in them, we do not eat eggs because all Jains do not. In that context, a dead animal's meat might be "legal", by convention we do not eat it.... Dr. Navin Mehta
Vipassana is very much part of Jainism. It's nothing but Kayotsarg. When I did Vipassana there were 4 Jain Sadhvi with me in same course. 100s of Jain sadhus are attending it just to learn the exact way of doing Kayotsarg. It has nothing to do specific with Buddha. Mahavir also taught same thing, but with time the real way of doing it disappeared. But in Myanmar it was preserved and now known as Vipassana.
DeleteFor rest of the things as I said I will get a proper answer from Jain Acharya.
Thank you.
The answer above is too dogmatic.
ReplyDeleteThe fact of the matter is that the Shramanic religion, at the time of Mahavir Swami was not called Jainism. There were only Sadhus and the whole lay public. Buddha was also a Shraman in that tradition.
At that time, without doubt, when the Shraman went to households for their food, they were offered food including meat. You would think that the Jain Sadhu would not be offered meat nor would he accept meat. In reality, he would be offered meat with the caveat that it is meat (because the householder had nothing else to offer). He would even be asked if he would accept meat. He would say “No’. Then the real problem arises. The householder still gives the meat to him, knowing that the meat he has given is from a dead animal. His conscience is clear. What is the Jain Sadhu expected to do? He is expected to NOT take it to his Sangha, but he is expected to eat the meat and bury the bones in a garden. Therein comes the other requirement that you cannot throw away food.
The verses in Acharang Sutra describing this are clear. Our later Acharyas and even I have tried to hide the real fact by say that the verses are talking about eating the “meat” off a fruit and burying the seed.
Let us look at another reality to understand even better. Our grandfathers used leather in many of their daily use items and particularly in shoes and chappals. It is only in the last 40 years that we have vinyl shoes. However, even today, 80% of the shoes outside the doors of our temples are leather. Did your grandfather, did you ask if the leather come from a dead animal or an animal that was purposely killed?
When 500 years from now, that generation reviews our actions, can they say that their forefathers did not use leather AT ALL? Definitely no. The records are very clear. The records of the ancient time are not very clear, but we can see the divergence in the Shramanic tradition into Jainism and Buddhism. And some sects of Buddhists eat meat if the animal was not killed purposefully. Do you know that with all the enthusiasm with which some in Jainism are preaching Veganism, that there are, in fact, millions of Buddhists who have been totally Vegan for centuries?
Basically, it all boils down to the interpretation some Acharyas make of the word “Ahimsa”. There is also the need for cohesion and unity and a common purpose. With that in mind, I do agree that as a Jain, one should not eat meat. At the same time and for those very same reasons, I would suggest that we are currently overstressing Veganism as a part of Jainism. Just as Buddhism drifted away and became the majority religion of Asia, there is a threat of further dilution of Jain population in Veganism becomes a new religion. In the meantime, I am happy to search out Buddhist restaurants in Singapore, Hong Kong and China and even in Toronto, when I am entertaining, knowing that these are pure vegetarian and co-incidentally Vegan……. Dr. Navin Mehta, Toronto
Excellent response and thank you. I had a friend who was a strict jain from birth. She was very short and petite, even for an asian, and she had bad body odor. I think the body odor came from the dairy, as she must have been lactose intolerant. I was vegan for over 20 years and one can be healthy, but I wonder if that's the best for children, because the growth hormones from animal foods stimulate increased height. Since I have friends who have vegan kids and grandkids, it does seem the vegan diet will result in shorter stature. Can you comment on this? It does seem that Mahavira and Buddha both did not prohibit eating meat. Also when you say that millions of buddhists have been vegan for centuries, do you mean monks and nuns? Because when I look at their recipe books, I see dairy. Have asian buddhists had vegan pregnancies and children multigenerationally for centuries or just random monks and nuns have been vegan?
DeleteFrom Ahimsa practice, once soul dies, countless innumerable living beings originate in the dead body. By consuming dead body, one may be doing Ahimsa against these countless innumerable minute living beings.
ReplyDeleteI feel that the student should be explained about “Samurchim” jeev, what they are, how they come into existence etc.
Cooking is a form of violence (household violence). The intensity of violence increases with the number of senses. Cooking 5-sensed living being is more violent than cooking 1-sensed living being (and is considered violence from an ultimate standpoint). Cooking meat of dead animals means cooking of countless "samurchim" jeev (which are very minute five-sense human like living beings without a mind). Offering such food and consuming like food should be considered as violence.
DeleteJust as you don't like any pain to your body, all living beings (with 1-sense to 5-senses) have same body and same feeling of pain when their body is cooked, burnt, hurt, etc.
In our current state as worldly living beings (sansari jeev), we cannot observe the ultimate dharma of not eating anything. But, we can be practical about it and observe the least amount of violence by considering the number of senses of any living being, quantity of food consumed, timing, etc.
Very well explained. Thanks
ReplyDeleteThe answer given above is very comprehensive. Can one eat dead cow's meat in jainism? my answer:1) one cannot eat live cow's meat. it has to be dead before eating it. so the question refers to a cow that is naturally dead.
ReplyDelete2)a cow that is naturally dead due to an accident or killed by an animal is still killed. so this is same as a cow that is slaughtered. So, no one cannot meat of this cow that is dead either.
3)a cow that is found dead due to old age has meat that is riddled with some form of disease. the meat is not healthy. so, this is also forbidden to protect one's own health.
4) modern scientific research has shown that sticking to vegetarian diet is certainly more healthy and the kidney function along with heart etc., tends to be more healthy. so in the interest of one's own health, it is not good to eat meat.
thanks.
Acharya Dr.Sudhakar Rao MD
1.Body held together (OR organised) in a particular pattern (OR Rupa) by Soul (OR Jiva) is food available for other living being.
ReplyDelete2.Preferably,Vegetarian Food need to be consumed within a certain finite time period.
3.Once the Life-Span karma of a particular Living Being ends(OR death is ensured for that living being naturally), the pattern of left body by that particular soul/ jiva (or food) to other living being starts dis-organizing / rotting after a certain time period under the action of subtle beings in the role of scavengers.
4. Thus, food need to be consumed within a particular time period beginning with death of a particular living being and ending before start of action of subtle beings in the role of scavengers.
In just a few lines;
ReplyDeleteThe answer above is not accurate and to the point addressing the question.
Jainism is the "MOST SCIENTIFIC" Religion in the world.
Each body is basically a biochemical organ which decomposes into toxic (potentially toxic) chemicals, which can even lead to serious illness or death.
Also, just because you don't know the situation of that living animal (which is now dead) if that had any disease or infections...
So scientifically, EATING MEAT OF A DEAD ANIMAL IS PROHIBITED IN JAINISM...
The process of cooking destroys all decay producing germs.
DeleteIn just a few lines;
ReplyDeleteThe answer above is not accurate and to the point addressing the question.
Jainism is the "MOST SCIENTIFIC" Religion in the world.
Each body is basically a biochemical organ which decomposes into toxic (potentially toxic) chemicals, which can even lead to serious illness or death.
Also, just because you don't know the situation of that living animal (which is now dead) if that had any disease or infections...
So scientifically, EATING MEAT OF A DEAD ANIMAL IS PROHIBITED IN JAINISM...
One needs to eat what body needs. And eat that doesn't harm his/her body , mind and environment. No need to become slave of sensual gratification.live and let live. All life is one of a kind. Avoid believing others blindly.Prefer peace of mind over excessive happiness. Happiness and sorrow are both unstable states of peace of mind.
ReplyDeleteValue health; of body and mind.
Thanks.
As per my understanding of Jainism the food what has been mention in our scriptures & Agam's is vegetarian, firstly u can also make out from our teeth also, we r herbivorous & not carnivorous, so by nature also we human beings are born to be veggies
ReplyDeleteSecondly as per Jainism we r taught live & let live, this is one of the fundamental principal of Jainism
Now even what we eat say creaks, vegetables, fruits etc also has life , but they r catogrise as ekindri, beyindri...panchandri, if we eat wheat it is ekindri, whereas cow is a panchandri,in ekindri , only one sence is there, where as in panchandri five senses work & in one panchandri living being infinity no of organism are dependent & are living in that body,so if we killan animal & consume or eat dead animal we consume infinity no of organism which r not visible to our naked eyes
Where as in ekindri also organism are present but far less, so now as to survive we have to eat , so while eating also we should have wisdom, so to live we have two options , be veggie or meat eater, purpose of eating is to survive, to survive we can survive by eating vegetarian meal & by this wr r less harmful to living organism
Say 99 degree is temperature & 108 degree is also temperature, but there is a difference in temperature, like wise in ekindri there r organisms & in panchandri also there are infinity no of organism , so we should have wisdom while we eat
In dead body after 48 minutes lots of organism r reproduced in dead body, so our thirtankarsa & kevalis have preached not to eat non vegetarian food
Regards
Dineshkumar Bohra
shivammarketing2007@yahoo.com
+919448651666
You're mistaken, Our teeth are not vegetarian teeth, we have 4 canine teeth which are used for meat eating, but now over the time got shortened due to our reduced meat consumption. Cows, the true herbivorous does not have Canine teeth.
DeleteWell this is just a fact check for you. No agreements or comments about other things you said
1. It is very difficult to predict if animal was killed or naturally died.
ReplyDelete2. Animal even if naturally died is flesh and flesh of animal may have diseases
3. Eating flesh of dead animal and development of such tastes may lead to desires of similar taste.
4. Human body is made for plant based digestion as per scientific proof.
5. Plant based food has all nutrients available, so why even think of such un-nature solution
6. One more is that why are the sanskar not so strong in the child that such desires arise. Do you regularly visit a restaurant which serves non veg food, don’t you limit your visit to pure veg options.
I think the best answer should be from parents to advise the reason why we are Jain follower, what is our ultimate aim. If you use animal products, what are consequences etc.
Can someone share their perspective or better yet, an interpretation of Jainism scriptures regarding consumption of vegan (plant or soy based) products such as Beyond Meat, Impossible Whopper and the like? While these are plant-based products, they are engineered to look, feel, and taste like their equivalent meat products. No animals are harmed, but the thought of consuming these products give me a pause.
ReplyDeleteI agree with most comments like eating meat is a hindrance to moksha, is unhealthy, also the point of ahimsa is clear.
ReplyDeleteBut once you shared your life with cats, dogs, birds, pigs you realize everyone of them is a distinct personality, his own character and they can establish a relationship from soul to soul. Even science begins to realize that the emotional blueprint of mammals is very close to humans.
You won´t eat your beloved dog or cat once they died. You will bury them as your friend.
It is a matter of respect to other lifeforms, of love, compassion and empathy.
Due to character limitation breaking my comment into three parts:
ReplyDeletePart 1
First of all I would like to thank the authors for having the courage to bring up really controversial topics, so that thoughts around it can be listed & evaluated, and the best of our shared understanding can be churned out. The medium of written text allows deeper and richer exploration compared to a face-to-face interaction.
I will try to summarize the two viewpoints through which we could look at the question:
A. A few questions by those who feel that there is no wrong in eating meat of naturally dead animals.
1. The central argument as correctly identified is that jiva is atma, and body is just matter. When the atma leaves the body, what we are left with is just matter. It is neither single sensed nor five sensed, just a lump of matter. So a dead animal is essentially soulless and its meat does not entail any additional violence. While the social impact of such a course of action has been covered through the comparison with Buddhism, a few fundamental questions that naturally arise as an outcome of this line of reasoning has not been adequately covered, and are listed below:
2. Is it appropriate to consume a sachit (living) fruit or vegetable, to satisfy your hunger when a naturally dead animal is available in proximity?
3. There was a very interesting interaction I read in Jin Dhammo by Acharya Shri Naanesh of the Sthanakvasi sect. He mentions from the Sutrakritang, some tapasvis (ascetics) of the Hasti order in olden days (probably pre-Mahavir days) would fast for long periods and then when the time came to break their fast, they’d think that if they consumed grains innumerable jivas would be killed to satisfy their hunger. So they used to together control and kill a gross animal, like an elephant, which would entail killing only one jiva and satisfied hunger of many of them.
Acharya Naanesh responds with the traditional answer, that it is not the number of jivas that are killed that is important but the bhaav (feeling) associated which is important. And the feeling becomes more violent as we go from single sensed to multi sensed beings. The comparison becomes even more difficult if the animal (say elephant) is naturally dead? I’m yet to find an answer to it.
4. If the bhaav (feeling) is the operative word here, then is it so easy to predict? Couldn’t one person eat an apple with more attachment, more passion; than another eating an egg?
5. Food systems earlier were more local. It was much easier to find if the animal died naturally or were killed. Also people were surrounded by nature, and consequently animals. So access to naturally dead animals like cows, horses, deer, rabbits, rats, etc. was easier. So it must have been easier to find out if the meat procured was from a naturally dead animal or from one voluntarily killed.
6. There are some 108 doshas (lapses) of gochari (begging for food) that I’ve come across. None of them talk about accepting meat. These doshas are categorized in three categories – doshas by the one begging (monk or nun), doshas by the one offering & doshas by both. The basic premise of these doshas is that the one begging should not specify what he/she wants, and the one offering should not have prepared the food specially for offering. The offering should be made from what was cooked for the personal consumption of the offeror. The Buddhist system of accepting whatever is offered, even if its meat, seems consistent from this standpoint.
7. Intellectual societies prefer generalizations of what is right & what is wrong, tribal societies live in the moment. Tribal societies seem to have a stronger and more intuitive connection to nature and its creations, compared to city dwellers like me. And in tribal societies meat eating is much more common. Do they possess a better understanding of the socio-economic and karmic effect of such actions?
Part 2
ReplyDeleteB. Now we explore reasons why it is wrong to eat meat of naturally dead animal (I’m writing this section with the disclaimer that I’m comparatively more subjective here due to my inherent biases)
1. In a number of Indian traditions, including the Bhagavad Gita, meat is classified as tamasic, and not appropriate food for those with a spiritual inclination. So naturally dead meat also gets disqualified from this point of view for those desirous of undertaking moksha purushartha.
2. I have read in commentaries on scriptures that a number of higher sensed beings immediately arise in meat of higher sensed beings. (sammurchim jiva ki uttapati) Hence the comparison on the number of beings consumed on eating a number of live grains vis-à-vis an elephant or even a naturally dead elephant is not as straight-forward as indicated earlier.
3. Since the nature of jiva/atma/consciousness is such that it does not have sparsha (touch), varna (color), gandha (smell) & rasa (taste) and neither does it produce dhwani (sound) hence it can neither be felt, seen, smelled, tasted or heard; so we can intuit that it is beyond all scientific instrumentation.
Only an evolved yogi can feel and experience life in other beings through direct perception (pratyaksha pramaan). Mortals like us, who do not raise our consciousness appropriately, can only through induction of our consciousness and words of kevalis (omniscients), believe in the presence of life in other beings. For movable beings it is easy to extend and induct presence of life, but for sukshma (finer) beings our perception is inadequate and it would in my opinion be appropriate to have vinay (submission) and to heed the calling of the tirthankaras until we can have direct perception of life around us.
4. Religions exist based on different axioms. An axiom is an idea, a statement or proposition which is regarded as being established, accepted, or self-evidently true. Because of the limitations of our mind, we have to submit to certain axioms. Though, it is dangerous to discard reason but by its very nature (if there is a cause for every effect, what is the primal cause?); it’s inescapable to not discard reason at axiomatic end-points. In moral pursuits, there could be more than one endpoint. So, some axioms need belief and unfortunately, despite our best efforts, are beyond reason and our logical faculties. Religious arguments cannot always be objective as brilliantly argued by the 19th century Danish philosopher, Søren Kierkegaard (extract of his ideas appended in Part 3 of the comment).
5. Not consuming meat seems like one of the axioms of Jainism. Axioms successively create traditions, and traditions help preserve religion. Since I feel I have gained more through the religion, I choose to respect some traditions, which in my opinion are essential, though I might not have an irrefutable argument in support of it.
I’d like to conclude by saying that the number of points for or against is not critical. Neither is a point-by-point rebuttal of either sets the objective. We many times have to discriminate within uncertainty. In this case the cost-benefit (the taste of meat or meat of naturally dead animal vs the possible effect on sadhana of consuming the meat) does not justify eating meat for me personally.
Different people may arrive at a different conclusion with the same set of arguments.
Part 3
ReplyDeleteSøren Kierkegaard argues that "subjectivity is truth" and "truth is subjectivity." Kierkegaard conveys that most essentially, truth is not just a matter of discovering objective facts. While objective facts are important, there is a second and more crucial element of truth, which involves how one relates oneself to those matters of fact.
Joestin Gaarder summarizes Kierkegaard’s thought beautifully in Sophie’s World. In the book, Sophie is a young girl like Alice, and the Major is a philosophy teacher, who takes her through the Wonderland of 5000 years of evolution of different philosophies. I’m quoting a conversation from it below:
Major: “Kierkegaard also said that truth is ‘subjective.’ By this he did not mean that it doesn’t matter what we think or believe. He meant that the really important truths are personal. Only these truths are ‘true for me.’ “
Sophie: “Could you give an example of a subjective truth?”
M: “An important question is, for example, whether Christianity is true. This is not a question one can relate to theoretically or academically. For a person who ‘understands himself in life,’ it is a question of life and death. It is not something you sit and discuss for discussion’s sake. It is something to be approached with the greatest passion and sincerity.”
S: “Understandable.”
M: “If you fall into the water, you have no theoretical interest in whether or not you will drown. It is neither ‘interesting’ nor ‘uninteresting’ whether there are alligators in the water. It is a question of life or death.”
S: “I get it, thank you very much.”
M: “So we must therefore distinguish between the philosophical question of whether God exists and the individual’s relationship to the same question, a situation in which each and every man is utterly alone. Fundamental questions such as these can only be approached through faith. Things we can know through reason, or knowledge, are according to Kierkegaard totally unimportant.”
S: “I think you’d better explain that.”
M: “Eight plus four is twelve. We can be absolutely certain of this. That’s an example of the sort of ‘reasoned truth’ that every philosopher since Descartes had talked about. But do we include it in our daily prayers? Is it something we will lie pondering over when we are dying? Not at all. Truths like those can be both ‘objective’ and ‘general,’ but they are nevertheless totally immaterial to each man’s existence.”
S: “What about faith?”
M: “You can never know whether a person forgives you when you wrong them. Therefore it is existentially important to you. It is a question you are intensely concerned with. Neither can you know whether a person loves you. It’s something you just have to believe or hope. But these things are more important to you than the fact that the sum of the angles in a triangle is 180 degrees. You don’t think about the law of cause and effect or about modes of perception when you are in the middle of your first kiss.”
S: “You’d be very odd if you did.”
M: “Faith is the most important factor in religious questions. Kierkegaard wrote: ‘If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. If I wish to preserve myself in faith I must constantly be intent upon holding fast the objective uncertainty, so as to remain out upon the deep, over seventy thousand fathoms of water, still preserving my faith.’ “
S: “That’s heavy stuff.”
M: “Many had previously tried to prove the existence of God—or at any rate to bring him
within the bounds of rationality. But if you content yourself with some such proof or logical argument, you suffer a loss of faith, and with it, a loss of religious passion. Because what matters is not whether Christianity is true, but whether it is true for you. The same thought was expressed in the Middle Ages in the maxim: credo quid absurdum.”
S: “You don’t say.”
M: “It means I believe because it is irrational. If Christianity had appealed to our reason, and not to other sides of us, it would not be a question of faith.”
Jainism is not about "Jain Food" as widely understood. Jainism is about Jinendra, the win over senses and living righteous life. Least himsa (violence, killing, etc) is promoted as Forgiveness mantra. For our palate or the pleasure of senses, we should reduce the Himsa as much as possible.
ReplyDeleteThe Lives thriving on the dead body is anant Aparyapt Panchendriy (Infinite undeveloped 5 senses lives). Same under the armpit, in the sweat etc. Therefore it is restricted to eat any kind of meat.
Jain food is said to be basically plant based, and not even the plant itself to avoid killing of the plant.
ReplyDeleteSo animal based foods are prevented for consumption. Concerning dead animal's meat; there is a concern for doubt i.e.whether the animal died naturally or was killed. Further natural death can be induced to achieve a purpose through eternal means. In case of doubt, we let our fundamental principle prevail. Similar is our response to eat egg (fertile or infertile). Concerning bacteria in yogurt and dead animal, these are of different types, In yogurt, it is micro or since sense micro living beings while in dead animal, these are more than one sense as they can seen moving. I am not recommending or suggesting to eat yogurt knowingly about bacteria and the fact that yogurt is dairy products coming from animal kingdom.
Shugan Jain
I read first two articles. I agree with the views of both.Jainism shows a way of life which one should live. So he is jain ,it may be with birth but if he does not follow the principles, he is jain,?no.but a non jain who lives as per these principles is jain by karma or action, not necessarily by birth.so, our principle karyu, karayu or anybody- which is against the principle can not be done. Similar like killing or abetting to kill (helping to kill) is an offence as per IPC. But our principles are very deeply thought.but one needs to be satisfied by other in logic
ReplyDeleteIt appears that the matter is getting mixed up.The question is does Jainism allow eating meat of a dead animal? It pre-supposes that you believe in Ahimsa as a means to attain salvation even when the concept of MOKSHA is not provable scientifically Accordingly minimising Himsa by 'Man' , 'Vachan' and 'kaya' is the cardinal principle. Food items must be therefore examined on the critera of what minimises 'Himsa'. Biology tells us that the organisms in vegetarian food are simpler forms of life as compared to the organisms even in a dead animal. The latter are also probably more densely packed.And then you have the psychological effects of the 'tamasic' food which make one prone to 'Hinsak' tendencies. All in all , meat even that of a dead animal is best given up if Jain principles and way of life is to be followed
ReplyDeleteJainism should be a living and dynamic tradition. Whether people were perfect in the past or not, we can see that there is a constant effort to be thoughtful, and to evolve our behaviours as times change, and to continue to refine our principles. We are not like so many religions that stick to a single book as a reference, with its various pros and cons. We are open to constant improvement, and the needs of the world around us.
ReplyDeleteTrue, we cannot price moksha, and the concept itself may be beyond our finite human vision and minds. But perhaps there are aspects of such and idea we can grasp, even if we don’t believe in simplistic cosmology. At the very least there is the idea of improving out inner balance and outer action to our maximum extent.
As for the importance Veganism, it does not depend on whether Sadhus in the last may have eaten meat on occasion. Yes it is interesting to track the progress of vegetarian behaviours in Jainism and other religions, and some lessons can be learned. But one can interpret this information in divergent ways. I think we should promote as evidence of how we must continue to think and evolve, to be a living dharma rather than as fossilized religion.
Bopdji Shah, Canada
Delete“Jainism should be a living and dynamic tradition.”
There are two Jain traditions I would like you to reconsider.
1. Eggs are prohibited. However, as a scientist I know that the eggs that are sold for consumption are unfertilized and therefore do not have life. Jains should be eating eggs.
2. This is even more difficult for Jains to accept. People produce phots of living microbes in water to justify what? To Boil the water and kill them. One could easily filter to remove a vast majority of them. I am told, these microbes live symbiotically in your intestines, are helpful to you, and people use Probiotics to encourage the growth of the “good microbes”. As jains we boil the water and KILL thousands of microbes in one go. Some body can say, it is a totally insane Jain practice, when filtering would be so effective.
“As for the importance Veganism”
At one point in history 2530 years ago, the Jain Sadhus were prohibited to travel except by foot. There are inscriptions on pillars in certain parts of Madhya Pradesh, suggesting that in philosophical debates the Jains drove out the Buddhists. The end result however, was that Buddhism spread all over East Asia, and Jainism remained dormant and was almost swallowed by Hinduism. I want people to become aware of the HUGE numbers of Buddhists who are totally Vegan, and the North American thrust towards Veganism is likely to throw the next generation into the arms of Buddhism. How? These Jain Vegans indoctrinated in Veganism would go to Jain temples, see milk products served, and would go to Buddhist temple which serve only Vegan food and will drift to wards Buddhism
Amazing outlook about Veganism & Buddhism. Very well put. This exactly the reason why the so-called Jain leaders need to understand the spiritual aspects of Jainism and not remain in the rigid mindset they are in currently or else the youth of today would be driven to wherever they can find the answers with more spiritual perspective
DeleteOn consumption of all kind and type of food
ReplyDelete1st basic fundamental used is Aahhar Evvo Vikaar.
What ever we would consume (Even within our though process, including, hence Darshan, Jyaan or Charitra) its going to reflect somewhere or somehow at some point in our life cycles.
As on today, at the most we can stop our self from indulging ourself on terms of our Charitra's. As in todays modern world, we cannot stop our self from Darshan and Jyaan.
Hence most of the consumption even if those are pure vegetable Ex. bringle, Fig etc are not permitted.
I have (and all of us possibly have) experienced that discussing the application of Jain principles to contemporary issues usually results in a tie. There areare expectedly two major views (1) one that can be described as dogmatic (not using this word in a critical manner) where "the given" (moksha, jiva, atma, himsa and other concepts) are treated as unquestionable, hence the view is quite predictably conservative, (2) there is a sincere attempt to seek pramaana (evidence or rational justification) to properly and consistently discover (rather than choose) outcomes of new challenges.
ReplyDeleteBoth the groups remain unconvinced of one-another's stand.
Neither group has the capability to actually research agama, investigate principles and their applications in challenging cases and so on. Our Jain worldview forms at the feet of sadhus (no disrespect meant at all).
My point is if we were to recycle sadhu's views and not research shastra on our own, why even start the debate? Some day I hope to start reading the scriptures, until then let sadhus decide.
10 Crazy Benefits of Vegan Diet You Did Not Know. If you are facing health issues, this is the time to change the diet plan. These are surprising benefits of vegan diet you did not know before.
ReplyDeleteSir,
ReplyDeleteFirst of i all loved your blog very much. And i loved the discussion in comments also very much and found it very healthy. Normally we don't see this type of discussion. People put their different thoughts and discussed them in such a peaceful way. No fights or heated arguments. This is very good for others also to clear their brain.
In the topic of non veg and alcohol, i think that we may create non veg and alcohol in labs without harming anyone.. but i have drank and eaten, i found out that the main logic is not about harming anyone, the main and primary thing is that you can't take perfect decision after eating non veg , drinking, eating lhsun oyaj regularly, they affect our brain in some ways. That is the primary reason
if eating meat is wrong just kill the slaugherhouse workers or something sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh
ReplyDeleteJai Jinendra.
ReplyDeleteIt should be noted that there do not exist any bacteria in correctly made yoghurt. I mean to say that if:
1. Milk is received in a pure form and
2. Before the milk's validity of one day gets over, it is kept for making yoghurt using a silver coin or a small piece of cococut cuticle (and not by using the previous yoghurt to ferment the next yoghurt)
there will be no single bacteria in the yoghurt
A research regarding the same was successfully conducted at Kolkata Laboratory by one of our scholars - Prakashchand ji Hitaishi